The Human Connection: Building Deeper, More Meaningful Relationships in Recovery

Rebuilding relationships after addiction is one of the most difficult yet rewarding challenges of recovery. In this powerful episode, our expert panel, joined by renowned life coach and relationship expert Dr. Ray Doktor, explores how to break through emotional barriers and reconnect with loved ones. From repairing broken trust to reigniting intimacy, we dive deep into the human connection and how it transforms the recovery journey. Dr. Doktor shares his proven techniques for fostering emotional resilience. Together with our co-hosts, Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II, David Livingston, LMFT, and Michael Lowenstein, M.D., they explore the physiological and emotional aspects of healing, helping listeners navigate the complexities of recovery with newfound strength and hope.

Podcast Episode Summary:

1. Breaking the Cycle of Isolation – Learn how addiction impacts relationships and why reconnecting with loved ones is a vital part of the recovery process.
2. Emotional Resilience in Action – Dr. Ray Doktor shares practical tools for building emotional resilience, fostering self-awareness, and re-establishing trust with family and friends.
3. The Medical Connection – Dr. Michael Lowenstein explains the physiological changes during detox and recovery, highlighting the impact of hormonal imbalances on relationships.
4. Mindfulness and Healing – Discover how mindfulness techniques can help rewire the brain, reduce stress, and open the door to deeper, more meaningful connections in recovery.
5. Practical Strategies for Relationship Rebuilding – Clare Waismann and David Livingston provide insights on how to approach family dynamics, handle rejection, and rebuild intimacy after addiction.

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Transcript:

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Hello and welcome back to a podcast to answer your questions about addiction recovery and mental health from the Waismann Method Opioid Treatment Specialist and Rapid Detox Center. I’m Dwight Hurst, a clinical mental health counselor and your co-host for today’s program. Grateful for all of you listeners out there joining us, and also always grateful to be here with our excellent panel of experts. And we always, when we are, we always have great experts with us. And today we also have a wonderful guest who’s joining us. So we’ll go around and meet everybody. Uh, first we have Clare Waismann, who’s a registered addiction specialist in substance use disorder, a certified counselor. Uh, she’s also the creator and founder of the Waismann Method, opioid detoxification specialists and Domus Retreat aftercare. We’re also joined, of course, by David Livingston, a licensed marriage and family therapist, a psychotherapist and clinical lead for our program. A real leading expert in the psychological needs that are connected with addiction and mental health recovery. Um, we’re so glad to be joined also by our medical director, Doctor Michael Lowenstein, globally recognized expert and authority in anesthesiology, pain management, rapid detoxification and addiction recovery. And we are so grateful today to be joined by doctor, doctor Ray. We’re so grateful to have you here today. Welcome, doctor Ray.

Ray Doktor, Psy.D.: Thank you for having me. You’re not going to try the doctor-doctor thing?

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: I was about to. I was going to go to it. So, doctor Ray, doctor is a best selling author. He’s been contributing to Chicken Soup for the Soul, which is a very moving series that’s been uplifting people for a long time, as well as a contributor and also being featured in Psychology Today, Men’s Health, and just a slew of kind of media appearances and references where you’re able to share a lot of things. Doctor Ray is someone who’s shared the stage with some of the most influential people in self-growth and personal development, and brings over a 28 years of experience in psychology and life and relationships and intimacy coaching and guidance for for so many people that you’ve been able to touch, and today you’re able to be here and help us out, as well as reaching out and touching all of our listeners as well. So once again, thank you for joining us.

Ray Doktor, Psy.D.: It’s an honor. Thank you.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Well, today we’re going to talk about how to build meaningful relationships, deepening the intimacy and the relationships that we have in recovery. As we know, relationships are often quite damaged and subject to damage when it comes to dealing with addiction. And rebuilding those meaningful relationships is not only vitally important, but it also can feel like an overwhelming challenge as people are doing that and moving towards recovery. So we’re going to dive into how to reconnect with loved ones, how to rebuild trust. And you know, doctor Doktor, your expertise is going to really help us out here. Hopefully we’ve all bumped into this issue a time or two before, but this is like your whole whole deal, right? I mean, this is this is your expertise. Um, what could you say.

Ray Doktor, Psy.D.: By the way, I have done probably about ten interventions, family interventions. So I used to be a little bit more involved in this field. But particularly my specialty is relationships. So I do have a good understanding of what you’re working with.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: And you’ve worked with so many clients over your career. Well, let’s start out by maybe telling us a little bit about, uh, what are some of the best starting points as people are addressing or some of the obstacles to that you run into right out of the gate with this issue?

Ray Doktor, Psy.D.: Well, first off, I would say many people who are moving through recovery, they are in survival. So their nervous system is overstimulated and they’re making choices based off of survival, and therefore they might not have the space to have an intimate, close relationship. Very important to understand, because again, when we are more in survival, we’re not looking at things in front of us from, say, a clear mind. It’s just more a moment. And so, as you know, also people who, uh, relapse, move into their addiction again and so forth is that there’s that part of them that knows that maybe they shouldn’t do this, but because they’re in pain, because they’re feeling something that can override their critical thinking. Therefore, when it comes to also relationships, that person might not be clear. And therefore what I think is very important for any person going through recovery is where they really understand what it means to experience, say, self-love, to where they’re able to develop more self-awareness to who they are versus a pattern or behavior or drug that they’re using. And with that, even if they’re in recovery and they’re looking to maybe enter a new relationship that just in the process, being able to break down a habit versus who you are to what you prefer versus what you had, then you might have some clearer map to interrelationship. But I think it’s utterly important for anyone who is like in the beginning stages of recovery, that should be the priority versus trying to get into a new relationship.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: So very high priority on the list of things really to do and to consider. I know we talk a lot about the need for assessment, and so would you say this is something that should be pre-assessed as part of starting treatment, is looking at what kinds of gaps there might be with relationships.

Ray Doktor, Psy.D.: Well, if you’re talking about a person who is already like in a space of healing like they’re. So we have two different there’s multiple issues, but there could be here’s the addiction and then here’s poor communication skills, here’s the addiction. Then here is a their skewed way of looking at relationships that are not working. And so even if a person’s sober, the way they’ve come to know themselves in relationships might be distorted. And so that’s utterly important. A person could be sober but still communicate aggressively or like a jerk. And so when a person is in that space to understand their psyche and why they do things. It’s for me, at least, when I’m working with someone, that we always get clarity with the addiction versus who you are and why that’s utterly important is that a lot of people who are in recovery feel a lot of guilt towards the people they hurt. Uh, people have experienced them being a little bit more narcissistic when they are in pain. You know, they might have been a little bit more self-serving in those relationships. Therefore they created that, those challenges. And so when if they still feel guilty and they don’t feel confident, that is going to show up in trying to say, uh, heal a relationship, uh, people that if it’s, uh, family and friends and they have hurt them, then there’s got to be consistency and there has to be a level of trust developed. So with any person who say now is recovered, that they know, at least through what I teach, is that you can’t expect them to forgive you. You can’t expect them to let them back into your life, and they have to develop a healthy enough relationship with themselves to accept, say that rejection.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: What role do we see here from our experience at Waismann. Uh what role do you guys see this playing the relationship rebuilding.

David B. Livingston, LMFT: Yeah. Well so most of the people we see um not everybody, but most of the people we see are usually in relationships. Many, many are married. I would say significant amount. Um, so, so they’re in the midst of a relationship already. So it’s not necessarily about whether or not they get into one because they’re they’re well established in one. Um, um, and, and usually at least in terms of the way I look at it, uh, in terms of self-love, I think, I think love or feeling self-esteem and feeling good about yourself isn’t just self-generated, it’s generated from the experiences you have around you, from how people treat you, even when you’re going through something that could feel to you like a failure, you could be feeling guilty. And so the mirroring you get back from the people around you, how kind they are to you, how understanding, even if they’re angry with you. It’s an ability to begin to deal with the complexities of life again, to begin to look at, um, all of those sides of things and begin to be able to manage them and, um, like you were, uh, doctor Ray, like you were talking about. Often people are in a heightened state. They can’t necessarily manage as much initially because they’re not sleeping well. They’re often anxious because they’re just coming off of opioids. And so they’re in a heightened state of recovery, at least for a while. And so it’s it’s harder to do this depth of work. You know, it kind of comes progressively and depending on the physiology of how a person’s feeling. But I think that the, the ability for there to be, um, just understanding and empathy, as basic as that sound is the core of it. And if you want to help the person coming out of recovery, listen to them because they’ll tend to tell you what they need. And that’s usually a good starting place.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: And by listening, you’re modeling good relationship, uh, back and forth to when people are able to have a good relationship and good communication with their care providers. I think that that’s a good start because at least I have that, even if I’m not feeling it with anyone else in my life. It’s something that hopefully can generalize, right? Yeah. And I would.

Michael H. Lowenstein, MPH, M.D.: Say, oh, go ahead. I’m sorry. David.

David B. Livingston, LMFT: No, no, please, no.

Michael H. Lowenstein, MPH, M.D.: From a medical perspective, when I always talk to patients before they’re treated and clear them, um, oftentimes it’s the or many times it’s the relationships and how the opiate use or addiction is affecting those relationships. That’s the motivation that actually brings them to treatment. You know, I hear all the time that, um, my wife’s going to leave me. I’m going to lose my wife or kids, um, from parents. You know, this is the last, last chance you have. Um, so oftentimes it’s trying to maintain those important relationships. That’s the motivation to get them there. And then obviously getting the opiates out of the picture is what’s necessary before they can start to, you know, repair and heal those relationships that have been affected. And it’s family. It’s a job. It’s it’s, you know, every aspect of their life that’s being adversely affected. So, um, yeah. And before and after the relationship is a real focus.

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: I think, Michael, if you can discuss a bit more about the hormonal imbalance, you know, that happens with addiction, because I think that has a huge part on what’s expected in recovery, you know, right after treatment, you know, because hormones, as we all know, affect your mood, affect your state of being, affect your sleep, everything else. So how important it is, you know, we’re in that they are in that hypersensitive, you know, adjustment period. How important it is for the family to understand that as well and not to expect that healing. You know that immediate healing.

Michael H. Lowenstein, MPH, M.D.: Did you want to address that now or is that.

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: Yeah. Just the hormonal imbalance that does happen. I think a lot of people are not aware of it and how it affects, you know, uh, the person’s mood and ability or feelings and, you know, through that recovery period.

Michael H. Lowenstein, MPH, M.D.: Yeah. So opiate, so specifically opiates, they are a numbing device. They numb us physiologically, um, our body systems and they numb us emotionally. And I think in large part the reason that happens is because opiates affect neurotransmitter production like serotonin, norepinephrine, dopamine, oxytocin, all of those neurotransmitter chemicals that are so important for mood for, you know, depression, anxiety, relationships, um, being able to express emotion. And then the other thing which I think is often overlooked is opiates in specific decreased testosterone production. I think a lot of people don’t understand the importance of testosterone for both men and women. Um, because, you know, we think of it, you know, being testosterone and muscle and everything, but it plays a very important role in libido. Um, and in mood. And so, you know, I see my patients that are taking large opiate doses, uh, male that should have a 6 or 700 testosterone level, and their testosterone level is less than 100, so they’re just not functioning properly. And in women it’s the same thing. It’s it’s even though it’s a much smaller, um, you know, blood levels of testosterone, it’s very, very important for, um, a woman’s well-being as well. So you take away the opiates, they start producing testosterone again. Um, they rebalance their neurotransmitters. And, um, I think you can’t really repair. I don’t think you can truly diagnose what’s wrong with the patient emotionally or mentally with the opiates in the picture because the effect it has and you can’t. I don’t think you can. I think it’s important to get all those things rebalanced so that they can be fully present and aware, you know, physiologically and emotionally to help fix the, you know, whatever underlying issues there are.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: That ties in a bit with what you were saying, doctor Ray, doesn’t it? With, uh, people get to know someone and they conflate the addiction with personality, right? Because we do act different during that.

Ray Doktor, Psy.D.: Yes, yes. I was going to ask something for David and Michael also, because David brought up about how important it is to have family there and feel that support. And I agree with. And then, Michael, you talked about these newer chemicals which you know, are the the love chemicals, the happy chemicals that which we experience, you know, off the drugs. And I could just see if you agree with this, how that is utterly important because here you’re getting off the opiates. And then it’s like, what if you didn’t have anyone there, whether it’s your family or pet your dog? Hopefully that can help kind of balance that out also, so that person is able to naturally manufacture that in their body. Would you agree with that? Like that’s kind of part of that to support the whole system of that person’s personality, plus their biology and a more natural way where we’re supposed to release that, you know, on its own if everything’s working correctly?

Michael H. Lowenstein, MPH, M.D.: Yeah, I completely agree, because when you’re right, naturally, in a normal physiology, you can see what the effects of relationships and human touch and everything have on oxytocin and dopamine and all those things. So if you’re because of the opiates, you’re not able to produce or have those normal responses, then you can’t have be very difficult to have a normal relationship. So we get the opiates out of the picture. The body kind of restores itself. It’s able to produce those, um, neurochemicals again, but then you still need that, that emotional tie to another human being to be able to fully function and, you know, flourish as a, as a person. So I completely agree.

David B. Livingston, LMFT: Right.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: So that medical and go ahead David.

David B. Livingston, LMFT: Well, just even on a very basic level as you’re talking about dopamine, I mean, one of the, one of the, um, one of the drivers in, in compulsivity or addiction is just the anticipatory process of going after of looking forward to something. So, um, part of what drives compulsivity and addiction is the anticipatory nature. When you’re getting dopamine hits about just going to get whatever the, the medication is or the thing. And, and in the absence of that anticipatory process, there is a flattening of dopamine afterwards. But as soon as someone’s enjoying listening to music, or they’re looking forward to seeing their dog or their, um, you know, uh, children or spouse or whomever, whatever the, the anticipatory process that gets begins to replace it. They, they will start to get dopamine hits. And I’m sure other things too, as you’re both pointing out that begin to regulate that pleasure and well-being sense and helps with the dysphoria where people kind of feel flat right afterwards. And, um, so all that’s useful in the early part of the recovery and forever. Really?

Ray Doktor, Psy.D.: Yeah, it’s the same. The same reward center for Drugs and alcohol is the same. Reward center for intimate relationships, the same area of the brain.

David B. Livingston, LMFT: You bet.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: So that psychoeducation and medical education becomes a really big, important part of that. If I don’t know what’s going on inside myself or why this is happening to me, I might make different decisions. And if I do understand it.

David B. Livingston, LMFT: I’m just going to say one last thing. But Hunter. Hugely, because what happens is right after is there’s this period of, um, the person doesn’t feel right or well, initially, they need to understand the way forward again, and they need someone who’s experienced enough who knows what correlates with what. Okay, I don’t feel good. Well, you need more sleep. Um, you know, I feel flat. Okay, here’s the things that will help with this. And so as you begin to have an understanding and you reestablish a way forward, and then and then you act on those things and it takes place over time, you really get a momentum, and then it pulls you out of what is part of or what tends to drive, um, addictive cycles, which is frustration and perceived helplessness. So as you understand what you need to do to move forward, you move out of perceived helplessness and frustration. Because even if even if it takes a while to get there, you have a sense of the way forward and it changes the the process and people. Then then anxiety goes down. There’s a relaxation and the whole process, even physiologically, gets better.

Ray Doktor, Psy.D.: Well, yeah, it’s pretty amazing. The how I would approach what you’re saying, David, like if I were coaching a client who’s going through this experience would be also where you mentioned that you give them healthier ways to cope with this. But one thing that happens also in relationships, particularly to say if you’re talking about married people, people, people who are already in relationships, again, there’s the addiction. And the addiction could have been there because there’s already a problem in a relationship. There’s still a problem there. They haven’t spoken about. We go a little bit deeper. It could be unhealed trauma and stuff that’s being projected into the current relationship. But if a person is in the addiction, they will never know the difference. They will never know the difference. So there could be the experience where their body is physically feeling bad from not having not having anything in it. It’s clean. That feeling of something’s wrong. This is off. We have to determine whether that’s a physical response or like a emotional response. And what I mean by that is oftentimes what happens with people is that is that they can be triggered by a conversation, uh, they’re unaware of why this conversation or say, what’s being shown on Facebook is triggering them, and they immediately connect that to something negative and outside of them versus why would I be triggered by this? Why is this bothering me? But when people find a quick remedy, such as using again or some other distraction, then they have not developed the experience to sit with pain and healthy way and move through it.

Ray Doktor, Psy.D.: They don’t have the experience to sit with discomfort and lean into conflict in a healthy way, which is going to be utterly important in any sustainable relationship. So that’s where sometimes it can be a little bit challenging. But that’s what we’re here to support people with. Because sure, your body could be feeling bad because it’s your you’re basically detoxing. Um, but then what shows up is this I have still these emotions, uh, and I still have these negative beliefs, but I also know that I might be the one to blame because I’m the one who’s using this. But it also might be an area where that the person still needs to focus on the to get clarity with that. They’re clean, they’re good. They’re in a good head space to make clear decisions, to have conversations that are taking personal responsibility. Therefore, they know it’s not the addiction speaking. So they have clarity to know that this problem in this relationship is not just a projection that they recognize that that that it’s very normal sometimes to feel disconnected from our partner. And that’s why it’s called a relationship. And you’re going to have to start talking. So with what you’re all sharing here, I just see how this supports the whole human in this experience.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: I know that some relationship experts talk about in relationship rebuilding and recovery, kind of a marriage 2.0 or a relationship 2.0 where there has to be a full redefinition of boundaries and expectations. I’m curious about some of those thoughts. How do people overcome the fear of that vulnerability to redefine?

Ray Doktor, Psy.D.: Well, if you’re asking me if a person has relapsed many times, then this moment they might still not trust that he or she is going to remain sober. So there’s that. Okay. And again, it goes back to this. Do they not trust that their husband or wife is not going to use, or do they not just trust their husband or wife? Okay. So we have to have clarity with that. That’s why I brought up early in this conversation. We have the addiction and the behaviors that come from the addiction. And then we have who you really are and what you really want. So we have to be very clear with that to make healthy decisions. And so with the if just say it’s more about the addiction and the supportive partner wants to reestablish boundaries, then it’s going to take some time to build that trust. But what will help build that trust is the inner trust of, say, the addict or the person going through recovery. Because, you know, I don’t know, this is an intuitive thing, but I just when I talk to a person who finally has gotten clear, like they really want to do the work, they’re not doing this work because they got caught. Um, they’re not doing this work just because they keep some relationship or someone at, you know, at bay that you know that they really want to become a better person. They want to become a better person. And I think in any healthy relationship that in order for a partner to kind of go, I’m ready to do this, I’m ready to be vulnerable. I’m ready to co-create with you. They would have to feel that. It had to be something that’s integrated in that person who’s moving through the steps.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: A lot of vulnerability necessary on both parts, then. Yes. And sometimes, as you’re saying, we tend to overemphasize the role of the person who has the addiction issue and they become either villainized or it becomes all on their shoulders to feel like I’m the bad one who has to fix this.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: And it takes work on on both parts.

David B. Livingston, LMFT: Well that, that part of part of um part of the bridge is, is understanding what is, what is the addiction compensating for. And when you understand that, you begin to bridge the difference between whatever’s being compensated for and what’s needed by the person. And then once, once others can understand that, too, there’s a bridge. It’s not as if, you know, I, um, I’m a bad person doing something bad, even though it may be destructive or has been destructive. But there’s it begins to be an understanding of what’s needed. And then again, a different way forward. If um, you know, I mean, you know, I mean, even the most basic things or if some sometimes people I mean, we see a lot of individuals come in who have pain. Sometimes they’re compensating because of physical pain and or mental pain in different ways. But once it begins to be clear what it’s being used for, then, then the then the use of the substance takes on a whole different, um, meaning. So it’s it’s not necessarily about just doing something bad. It’s more about, um, are you’re trying to cope with something in a very bad and in a way that’s not going to get you there. Let’s figure out how to get you there. And then there can be a different way forward. And I think in relationships, both people having some sense of that in a way that that they can feel is very healing in the relationship.

Ray Doktor, Psy.D.: I believe that 100% like to piggyback off of what you just shared, David, is that when I work with clients and they just feel a lot of guilt about what they had done or say, an addiction. I approach it from that same perspective, such as what if there was a positive reason you were using this? What if it was all unconscious? You’re in pain and you were using this in a positive way. Like, what problems would that be resolving in your life? It would be I, I’m not really happy to. I don’t know how to cope with this to. I’m afraid of something and then it might lead to the conversation. So you’re using this so you don’t have to deal with this or to make it easier or to alleviate the discomfort. And usually the response is yes. Okay. So it’s not like you’re using this because you’re trying to wreck your marriage. Or are you using this because you knew you had other options? It’s just all you’ve come to know thus far, and therefore it kind of validates them more in a positive way to know that we all do things, you know, at and that are not the healthiest when we just don’t know better in that moment or we’re in physical pain, um, and so forth.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Uh, doctor Ray, you’ve worked with a lot of leading experts, I think, in the field when it comes to mindfulness. You’ve done work with Marianne Williamson, Eckhart Tolle. Could you talk a little bit about how mindfulness is useful in these application to rebuilding relationships?

Ray Doktor, Psy.D.: Absolutely. So again, it’s not all people, but I would say many people who are going through recovery. There’s a lot of negative thoughts and therefore with their linear mind, they might only be able to focus on what’s in front of them and that might be their cup of water. It might be the text message from their wife, it might be their children to just getting to work and so forth, just the basics. And to end that. There might not be a they might not have foresight on the future. They’re kind of like somewhat in the doghouse. And so it’s harder for them to see outside of that reality. They’ve been living in maybe 20, 30 years. So with mindfulness, what it does is it helps you be able to see those thoughts that you have from a higher perspective, but also tap into parts of your brain where, let’s say you can maybe activate your prefrontal cortex a little bit better to where you move out of survival into where you can see maybe a possible better future. So with meditation and with other spiritual work, where it is more about honoring what comes up and letting it go, but it’s also about remembering that, you know, we attract what we are, we attract what we are. And what I mean by that is that when we are in a space of forgiveness, when we are in a space of finally loving ourselves, or we’re finally in a space to recognize that, oh, I was using because I was in pain, then what that does is it allows us to accept ourselves and to reset ourselves into live a better life. And and I guess you say with spirituality or mindfulness, it, it comes from that perspective.

Ray Doktor, Psy.D.: You know, we’re many of us are. You know, we are we’re not aware of it. But we might be going through like an existential crisis. Why am I here? Why do I exist? What’s my purpose to what’s happening in politics? Am I going to be safe? You know, there’s a lot of concerns on our planet. And if we were to just look on at the news and other things around us, it looks like it could be a scary world. So if you are an addict and you’re in recovery and say your relationship needs repair, and you see outside that the world is chaotic with hurricanes, then what is your map? Where do you invest your hope into? And I would say this is why, like when people, um, often become a born again Christian through recovery or they follow this spiritual path, I would say that’s at least that’s the mechanism that’s behind it to help support them, because where they’ve been investing their time and energy has been something negative. It hasn’t helped them prosper, and therefore they’re going to have to change their life philosophies and look at things from a more positive way so they can feel better, so they can feel less stress. So their body is not, say, looking for that drug again to feel better, but more that they are now living that life now with their partner in life. And so I guess you say when you combine spirituality, whether you call it, you know, New Age stuff or Christianity or something else, it’s just it’s a great support with a person who’s been in a funk for a really long time.

David B. Livingston, LMFT: Um. Turns out I happened that that, that one of the core aspects of mindfulness is, is, um, the ability to bear yourself and develop restraint at the same time that you can have, you can allow things to sort of unfold without, um, without too much preference. And in a recovery, um, a lot of what the beginning part is, you, you almost want to go through it in a more meditative state. And to do that you have to allow you have to believe that things are unfolding and understand that things are unfolding as they need to, and which is part of what I try to help people notice, whether it’s working or not and what is going to help get them there. But the other thing I would say is that, um, uh, and I think this is particularly apropos to addiction is that, um, people underestimate how much peace and joy there is in a restrained mind that when people show restraint, there’s actually a great peace and joy that comes over time. And you’ll see it. You’ll see it unfold from the people who are a Domus over time, as since it’s a very simple atmosphere, not much is asked of them and they’re able to just really begin to feel the simplicity of themselves, kind of just be again, without all the hecticness of life. They actually come back and are very joyful. Um, so, you know, it just sort of speaks to that more meditative and that mindful state. And I think it is a restoration of just being right that that if you want to look at a whole human being, there’s, there’s all that we have to do. And but you have to have a sense of being able to be okay in yourself. That’s your first home. And if the restoration of that internal state is critical to ongoing well-being, sobriety, and on and on and on.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Yeah. Yeah.

Michael H. Lowenstein, MPH, M.D.: I’m just gonna say from a medical perspective that, um, are you guys getting that feedback or can you hear me?

David B. Livingston, LMFT: I can hear you.

Michael H. Lowenstein, MPH, M.D.: Okay, I’m just getting feedback. Um, from a medical perspective, you know, a lot of the patients we treat are chronic pain patients, and they always ask me, what am I going to do when the meds are gone? And so that’s why things like mindfulness meditation, yoga, um, biofeedback. I tell them there’s many modalities out there that they can learn to be able to control their, their pain. Um, because, you know, pain and chronic pain also affects relationships dramatically. So, um, I think treating the opiate dependence is the first thing. And, you know, for most patients, it’s a very small part of it because what you’ve all discussed is going to be what makes them successful long-term. And so I think like mindfulness plays a huge role in their recovery. And, you know, normal function going forward.

David B. Livingston, LMFT: That both from a psychological perspective and regarding pain that you might say pain times resistance equals suffering. So the ability to be unconflicted with what’s going on and understand it loosens the grip of resistance, because through the understanding you begin to things begin to move again and become more fluid. And even the sensations of pain in a mind that’s less resistant to it, there’s less suffering. And like you’re saying, uh, Doctor Lowenstein, there’s, you know, through the practice of meditation and other things, that’s actually a way you can have less suffering, even if you have the same amount of pain.

Ray Doktor, Psy.D.: The restraint part is pretty like. I agree with that. I would say I like this is a good analogy, and I know men who been in this space who had developed this would probably agree. It’s it doesn’t seem related, but I work with men, and one of the things we might work on is to be around an attractive woman. And if there were something sexual that were to come up, they could just be in that space and not controlled or polarized in a negative way. And every man I have worked with, where they’re able to be around that and not be distracted and just take a deep breath in and own that power, they feel so powerful because they’re not being pulled, you know, where they make those poor decisions. So that restraint you’re talking about, David, I totally agree. It’s not like you’re going to be deprived of something. It’s actually the opposite. You’re going to feel empowered. You’re going to feel empowered in control of your life.

David B. Livingston, LMFT: Yeah, that’s a good way to put it that, that that the, um, that it’s really just creating another muscle that oes give you more options and more, more ways of being in the world. That’s right.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Well, to everybody out there who’s listening, I’m wondering, as we are wrapping up for today.

David B. Livingston, LMFT: I feel… Clare, I feel like we haven’t heard from you much and you deal with more families and, you know, and so many relationships and anything you, you feel like adding?

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: I think all this conversation is, um, extremely important because I think knowledge, understanding, understanding not just the physiology but the individual is extremely important. Um, you know, often, um, we lose the individual behind the condition. So people see addiction, but forget to see there’s a unique person back there that has, you know, a specific history, specific needs and everything else. So I think all this conversation where people can understand the person as a whole is extremely important for relationships, for recovery, uh, for a healthy path. All the above.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: As we are drawn up today, I wanted to just give everybody, uh, one thought that you might want to share. What’s the best piece of advice for anyone who might be listening that is maybe caught up in this overwhelming stress that we’ve been talking about for them to get started, if they wanted to get started today at doing some things to help, what would be your one piece of advice for them?

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Oh, well, we usually rock, paper, scissors to see, to see who goes first. So we should, uh. No, you can start, doctor Ray.

Ray Doktor, Psy.D.: Okay. Well, I was going to let someone else, but I’ll just go for it. See if I can make up something. Well, again, you know, there’s a. I’ll share it here. I have it in my my my book here there’s a simple exercise. And in those listening to this, you know, you can hear this again. There’s a part there’s a ten questions I have, uh, my client’s answer and it’s also my book and it’s really quick. And they are to just say free associate and say the first thing that comes to mind. And so there’s ten questions here. It’s love means and they answer that. So it would be love means. My family taught me that love meant I received love when I, I didn’t receive love when I, I needed my parents to love when I now if they were to fill us out, answers might be like this love equals pain to me. My family taught me that love has to be earned, so it’s conditional. I received love when I achieved good grades. I didn’t receive love when I disagreed with my parents. I craved my parents love when I was in college. So a person will start recognizing that how they developed a negative experience about love. In fact, it might not have been love at all. It might have been fear. And then the next exercise they are to do is to reframe it so it might end up being this love means I will, love means I will get hurt, becomes I’m safe to receive and give love.

Ray Doktor, Psy.D.: My family taught me that love must be earned, becomes I am loved unconditionally. I received love when I got good grades becomes I receive love every day because I am love. I didn’t receive love when I disagreed with my parents becomes I’m authentic and love for who I am. And so in a way, it’s like where it’s recognizing that we have to like, look at how we really feel about ourselves, whether or not we feel that inner love. And if we don’t, it’s going to be very hard to say, even love ourselves through this process of sobriety. It’s going to be hard to open up. And it’s. And so but there are ways to get directly in there to understand that. Wait a minute, I did Misconception about Love. Oh, uh, I really haven’t learned how to open myself to and to receive this. And a person might discover that the behaviors such as using and so forth might be connected to that. And then with that, you can kind of see the moving parts to break it apart and to see how beautiful you are, but also to start experiencing the love you want by communicating it from a healthy place. Right?

Michael H. Lowenstein, MPH, M.D.: I will, I’ll go next from the from the empty Standpoint. Um, the one thing that all of the patients we treat have in common is they’re opiate-dependent, right? And the first step is you treat the dependence, but it’s just such a it’s a critical first step. But it’s such a small step when you look at after we treat the dependence everyone else every patient is unique, right? And what got them there is unique. Their situation is unique. Their relationships. And what the rest of you do is so critical for a long-term success. Um, so we can get the opiates out of the picture. And as we discussed, the hormones and neurotransmitters can rebalance, but that’s really just the foundation. And then, you know, it could take days or months or years or a lifetime to work on the rest of the issues. So that’s my 2 cents.

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: I’m going to go a little simpler here. I think um, and then I’m going to let David finish with the golden key of wisdom. But I think his, um. Expectations. Um, I think, um, experience changes who we are. It changes our relationships. Uh, it changes how we see the world. It doesn’t mean that it’s better or worse. It’s different. So, um, as the recovery process goes, um, just hear each other, you know, um, use humility to learn more, uh, to understand more, um, be careful of the expectations of the person that is going through recovery and the expectations of your own feelings. I mean, there will be low days, high days, middle days, but I think, uh, enjoy the path. Enjoy the path. It doesn’t need to be excitement all the time. Um, just that walking path of learning who each other is and where they are at that moment could be extremely pleasurable.

David B. Livingston, LMFT: After listening to everybody’s responses, I forgot the question. What was the question again?

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Oh, just kind of the one thing you’d throw out there to somebody who is struggling getting started with this. What’s one piece of advice you’d give them?

David B. Livingston, LMFT: Um. Just be honest with yourself. Um, try to be honest in the beginning. Try to be honest. Um, and it doesn’t mean you have to share things with others. You’re not ready to. But, I mean, really, what happens is, as soon as people are ready to make a change, what they’re really ready to do is, is see themselves more fully and be more honest with themselves. And really, the beautiful thing about the being more honest with ourselves is it’s actually a willingness to see ourselves more fully. And you know what’s going well, what’s not going well, and what we need and, and onward. And so I think that if you can do that gently and you, you can and take that risk, it’s unbelievable how much better things get. And then, um, so, you know, it’s I’ll leave it at that.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Wonderful.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Well, it’s a lot of information that is useful for people to take forward with them. Doctor Ray. We’re so grateful you’ve been here with us today.

Michael H. Lowenstein, MPH, M.D.: Thank you.

David B. Livingston, LMFT: Yeah. Thank you.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Tell everybody where they can follow your work.

Ray Doktor, Psy.D.: They can go to my website, which is raydoktor.com. It’s my real last name. RayDoktor.com. And you. There’s links there to get free stuff as well. And also you can find my book there as well. Link to where to get it.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: All right.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: At what point did you decide you got to get a doctorate with the last name of doctor.

Ray Doktor, Psy.D.: After all those 80s songs?

Ray Doktor, Psy.D.: But, you know, primarily in junior high and high school, people would always say, you know, if you became a doctor, blah, blah, blah. Here’s the funny thing. My 20-year reunion, I swear to it, I had high school friends come up to me and say, what’s your real last name? All that time they thought I was a stage name.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: So there you go.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Well, to everybody who’s out there listening, thank you for being a part of this. You are a part of this just by being there. If you would like to support us, the best thing you can do is reach out to us. Let us know what your questions are about addiction, about recovery, mental health, detoxification and any of those those things that we talk about all the time. You can reach us at info@opiates.com, or go to at opiates on all of your social media platforms if you have one. I bet we’re on at opiates. You can go to our website at opiates.com as well, to learn more about the Waismann Method and to communicate with us as well. This show is a production of Waismann Method, Opioid Treatment Specialists and Rapid Detox. Uh, the music for the intro is the song Medical by Clean Mind Sounds. And, uh, for everybody here, uh, once again, to express your our gratitude for getting to spend this time with you and to remind you to keep asking questions about these important things. Because if you ask questions, you can find answers. And if you find answers, you can find hope. Uh, thank you again to our great panel. And everybody have a great week.

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: Thank you, thank you.

David B. Livingston, LMFT: Thanks, everybody.