From Detox to Addiction Recovery: Navigating Obstacles and Celebrating Triumphs

WAISMANN METHOD’s founder, Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II, Domus Retreat’s clinical director, David Livingston, LMFT, and Dwight Hurst, CMHC discuss the various obstacles that can prevent someone from seeking addiction treatment, such as financial and geographical constraints, stigma, fear, and ambivalence. They also highlight the importance of medically assisted detoxification and treating addiction as a medical condition. The hosts stress the need for a person-centered approach, acceptance, good communication, and support from family and friends. They encourage listeners to turn obstacles into strengths and emphasize the long-term benefits of addiction recovery.

Dwight Hurst, LPC: Welcome back to Addiction, Recovery and Mental Health, a podcast by Waismann Method Opioid Treatment Specialists. I’m your co-host, Dwight Hearst, joined as always by Clare Waismann and David Livingston. We’re here, as always, to answer your questions about addiction, about mental health and health building in recovery. And we’ve got a great one today. All right. We have a very interesting question to do there. Kind of two questions. Our question today is we kicked around some topics. One was, as you put it, David, what factors inhibit getting into treatment? What factors help once you’re there and then kind of very similar? But is the thought that I had about what gets easier and what gets harder when we are going through the treatment process and when we give up these the sort of give up the unhealthy coping skill of drugs or alcohol or whatever the intoxicant abuse is so very related. We decided we’re going to dive into all of that. But first of all, hi guys. How’s it going?

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: Good, How are you?

David Livingston, LMFT: Good.

Dwight Hurst, LPC: Doing good.

Dwight Hurst, LPC: Well, where should we start with that? Should we look a little bit at the way that you phrased it, David? I mean, the things that inhibit us and the things that help us from treatment or with treatment.

David Livingston, LMFT: Yeah.

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: Are we talking about actual, you know, factors? Are we talking about emotional reasons that keep people from getting treatment?

Dwight Hurst, LPC: Well, in my mind, we’re talking we’re probably looking at both. If we’re looking at obstacles or inhibitions, there are practical as well as external and internal factors.

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: Right. Right.

Dwight Hurst, LPC: Yeah.

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: Right.

Dwight Hurst, LPC: I think they’re all important.

David Livingston, LMFT: You you want to start, Clare? Or can you deal with this a lot?

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: Please do. No, please do. I just wanted to know because obviously, you know, there’s the financial part of it. There’s your geographic location. You know, there’s. And then there’s the stigma. There’s the fear. So I just wanted to know if you guys are focusing on, you know what.

David Livingston, LMFT: Why don’t you start with all that? That’s that’s great.

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: No, I’m. Please go ahead. Make your day.

Dwight Hurst, LPC: We’re having a polite off here where we’re all staring each other to see who’s going to go first.

David Livingston, LMFT: Right. Okay. Just so so, Clare, you’re bringing up some of the external factors, which are sometimes the biggest things like you’re saying. And. And you hear about this more than I do. Probably while I’ll hear about kind of, um, maybe more of the internal, although I hear about both and I’m sure you do too. You know that there’s a lot of obstacles in terms of getting into treatment. Some is just, you know, finances, some is, you know, a big one is time. People don’t feel like they have the time and, you know, have too many responsibilities. And then the fact that there’s always ambivalence about stopping and usually think in terms of the people are very often not always but you know, we’ll hear from people who are in a very kind of a desperate place where they literally feel like they can’t continue, you know, living the way they are and they just have to do something and they’re reaching out. And by that time, there’s been a lot of suffering usually. And, you know, they’re very shut down and very unhappy. And their life isn’t going the way they want on top of it, whatever. If they’re coming off an opioid, which is mostly what we see, they are getting dysregulated by how fast they’re metabolizing the medicine. Their sleep is usually interrupted. They’re often very shut down, very depressed, because over time it becomes a depressant. Opioids do, even though they don’t begin that way, they actually can help with depression over time that levels off and then goes down the other side where it starts to cause depression.

David Livingston, LMFT: Life gets smaller and smaller. And so it’s a hard place to be. And then there’s the reaching out and just trying to have confidence that things will get better if you do get treated and you know, and the confidence in the people that you’re asking to help you, you know, there’s a leap of faith in that. And interestingly, as soon as that call is made and something is set up, people usually feel much better. And part of that is that when you’re in that sort of downward cycle where you’re feeling depressed, there’s nothing you’re looking forward to. And because our whole dopamine system is based on anticipatory benefits or things that we want anticipatorily as soon as there stops being any of that, which is an aspect of what happens in depression is there’s no hope. There’s you’re not anticipating anything. So even the anticipation of wanting to get off and and having a better life, you start to get dopamine hits again and you start to feel better. And then that continues throughout it and really helps drive the process. But there’s got to be a sort of there’s a, you know, a lot of ambivalence towards getting to that place. So maybe that’s a way to start it.

Dwight Hurst, LPC: It occurred to me, as you were saying, that, David, that desperation can be such an interesting emotional response because, you know, desperation and being sick of something can drive me to change it. However, there’s some certain strength of desperation that can cause me to shut down. Right. And to become more depressed. And then I’m going to reach out to unhealthy coping skills. So it’s funny how it can work for my health and against my health.

David Livingston, LMFT: You bet. Right. Depending on how you respond to it. That’s right.

Dwight Hurst, LPC: I think you can find the same thing, too. It’s interesting you mentioned dopamine, which is our brain’s chemical for a reward or an excitement, you know, and of course, intoxicants sort of open the valve. Right. For for a sort of extra natural supernatural, so to speak, dose of that. And you were talking about how it takes a minute to to break through that sober time enough to get dopamine again where we start noticing it from regular stuff. Am I understanding that correctly?

David Livingston, LMFT: I’m saying that the dopamine, the way the way it works is so the minute you’re on your way, if you decide you want to go get some ice cream, the decision to get it, you’ll get a dopamine hit on the way there. You’re getting dopamine hits and the biggest dopamine hit you get is right before you take a bite of the ice cream. It’s actually there’s a drop off once you actually have the ice cream. So it’s the anticipatory process that actually keeps us well and keeps us at. That’s the buoyancy and that’s how we’re all built. And so what happens with being on an opioid because it shuts you down over time. You stop anticipating anything. You stop doing things, you know. And in the beginning, often people feel better, whether they’re dealing with pain or can help some anxiety and depression and the very initial phases. And then that goes up and then levels off and then goes down the other side like was saying. So there’s no more anticipation. The only thing you anticipate is trying to not go into withdrawals and there’s not much of a dopamine hit from that.

Dwight Hurst, LPC: It’s interesting, once again, the kind of both sides, right. Dopamine is is something that’s definitely implicated in addiction, as we’re saying, but then also is there for natural rewards and health, healthy choices as well. Right. It’s interesting. We get hit with both sides with the things you’re mentioning so far.

David Livingston, LMFT: Well, mean the end of a the end of a treatment is a meaningful, varied life where you have enough things going on that you enjoy and like to do and that you’re getting a whole bunch of dopamine hits in a varied way through your relationships, your work, your, you know, just a whole bunch of ways and things that you’re looking forward to, that you enjoy and so that’s the end of a treatment. It’s not just right. We don’t need to get high from the medication because that will that’s that’s that is a dead end. It’ll it’ll be a dead end sooner or later for everybody. But we need the experience of the buoyancy of our brain being interested and anticipating things forever.

Dwight Hurst, LPC: I have thought about that. You mentioned the anticipatory feeling, right? And once again, maybe, see, I’m caught up now. Now I’m vibing on this thought of the good and the bad of both of every one of these things could be both. Something that’s hard about treatment or it would inhibit joining, but then also can be helpful if we can tap into the healthy versions of it. You mentioned the anticipatory feelings that before I ingest or participate in whatever is going to have the dopamine. But then again, there’s also the other side of anticipatory. Like if I’m anticipating a bad time, let’s say if I’ve tried to get sober before and failed. And, you know, I have found that most people who have any kind of addiction problems in their life and in their history a vulnerability to addiction. And they’re in their active use. They almost always have made efforts to stop. Most people want to stop at some point, and they want to be healthy. And so if I failed before, I’m anticipating failure. Right? That would inhibit me from engaging in treatment.

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: Yeah, I, I, I think is, um, is also understanding to who failed. Did you fail the treatment failed you? Did you get the right treatment that you needed? Are you treating something that’s not the root of the problem? I think on that phone call that David was talking about, I think there’s also an understanding of the person, the individual, when they feel heard, when they feel that they are not just another number, they are going into a treatment and sit there with 50 people. I think there is a relief as well when they understand, again that maybe what they have done before was not proper treatment for their issue or was not enough. There’s also almost a relief that, you know, I’m not a bad person. So there is hope. Both things that you guys were talking about. A) I think, um, there is not an understanding of truly of chemically how patients, how can they influence between the chemicals and what a role they play on your moods and your actions on everything you do. So when there is total deregulation of chemicals, I mean, and it’s not just dopamine, you know, it’s dopamine is endorphins is serotonin, it’s all the above. It’s very, very hard to function, especially if you need to function, you know, in a positive manner because you are living such a roller coaster of emotions caused by that dysregulation. So both ways.

Dwight Hurst, LPC: How much of a we talk about some of the things that get easier as we get more sober. The dysregulation. What do you notice about that? Is that to me, it seems like it gets harder in the short term as I take away anytime I remove a coping skill, even if it’s unhealthy. I may dysregulate more, but. But isn’t the hope that eventually I’ll be able to gain some more emotional regulation ability? Right?

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: I don’t know. Um. Exactly what you’re talking about when you say it gets harder. It is. Uh, maybe because again, there are different treatments and there is different paths to get there. I often see that patients do much better as the days pass by after detox and it’s something that is quite rapid.

Dwight Hurst, LPC: So you see that quickly starting to come back. Interesting. Yeah.

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: Exactly. Exactly. As they sleep better. You know, as they start, you know, eating better as they start moving around. There is such a fast improvement on their moods and on their whole being. Right, David, do you see that?

David Livingston, LMFT: Very much. I think you’re exactly right. The thing that in our program at Domus, the thing we try to do is really help people get their sleep regulated and really just, you know, once the sleep gets regulated, all the symptoms begin to get much better and pretty quickly because they’re done with the detox, they are just regulating their nervous system and getting back online. The body’s ability to sort of cope and sleep regulates faster than anything. I’ve seen this for coming up on two decades and time helps, but sleep speeds things up. And so once you’re done and then you get a good night’s sleep, it’s like you pop up and you go, Oh, I’m in. You don’t feel perfect, but you’re like, I’m, I’m okay. Um, so trying to help people get good sleep quickly is certainly one of the things we focus on. And then like Clare was saying good nutrition, doing things like yoga and stuff, just to get the body to begin to relax. And then probably the single biggest part of a treatment, I don’t care how you do it, is to, one, limit the suffering and get through it as quickly as possible. And then two, to have a really good experience with the people around you. You know, the purpose of getting off the opioids is so you can be more alive again. And that and that. One of the things that helps us feel more alive is when we feel more connected to each other, feel valued by each other. It’s kind of the basis of of so much.

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: When you become part of, you have less of that emotional isolation, you know, that is so dark for so many.

Dwight Hurst, LPC: Some of the things that become that start to get better almost right away through treatment, you mentioned you know, the different forms of treatment and especially detoxification helps to remove some of those well, really remove some of those physical dependence issues that can really slow down. And it helps to jump into a little bit more success. The thing that popped in my head was, so if I’m on my own trying to cold turkey, not only is that physically dangerous, you know, sitting there with a blanket and a bucket, as we’ve talked about before, but that also would impair those things that I would hopefully start to notice that are good. At least they might take a long time. Even if I succeed.

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: There is also, Dwight, that I believe… I mean, when you are vomiting and having diarrhea and not being able to sleep and not being able to eat. So this regulation that we are talking about just becomes more intense. You know, the nutrition that your body just needs in order to function and just think is being depleted. So also when you go through that type of suffering, not just emotionally, but physically, you are crippling your body almost from getting better because now you need to recover from the withdrawing period of what that caused. So again is double the work is double the time. And emotionally it is so difficult for patients after they have gone through five, seven, ten days of that just trying to get their strength back and some, you know, solid floors under their feet that often they relapse because they’re just so physically and emotionally exhausted. And that’s what David was talking about. You know, the experience. It’s so important, to limit the amount of physical and emotional suffering during that process. It’s incredibly important other than is much safer. And I’m not just talking about detoxification under sedation. I’m talking about any medically assisted detox. So any patient withdrawing from any substance should be inpatient in a medical facility regardless of what protocol they will use. It’s a condition. It’s a medical condition, and it’s the only one that it’s okay to have them in a room just vomiting and again, not sleeping and desperate. So I think those forms of treating people with substance use should be absolute. Yeah, because they’re just not effective.

Dwight Hurst, LPC: Well, then there are beliefs in there too, I guess we would say, on the realm of what inhibits us from engaging in treatment. Shame would certainly be one of those. But it strikes me that also the kind of I don’t know, the the the various dangerous beliefs I’d say the various beliefs that lead us to say, I’ve got to do it myself or somehow I can’t ask for help. And some of those things, as we see with people sometimes there’s even along with the shame, the feeling that I deserve to suffer. And that’s just part of it. And, you know, on the one hand, the lack of understanding that these treatments are available inhibits us. But there’s also that whole toxic belief that I have to do it all myself, right?

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: I see. Maybe. Maybe David can talk about this, but I don’t see that many people wanting or believing that they should suffer through it. I think the number one reason why the patients that we speak to do not follow through with treatment is, A, financial issues and B time. They just can’t take the 30, 60 or 90 days from, you know, their responsibilities or their families. So that’s why they end up trying to do themselves while they’re working or taking care of whatever they need to take care of. What do you think that is there? You know, a large number of people that believe they should suffer through it? I don’t see it.

David Livingston, LMFT: I know. I think what you have is people who are really motivated to get off of it. They’re really tired of it. They recognize that it’s that they need to do it and they want to do it and they try to do it themselves. And, you know, often they’ve tried by the time they call us, they’ve tried and failed once or twice, even more, because persistence is like is a muscle. It’s it weakens over time. It doesn’t matter how strong you are, you dysregulate you can’t sleep. You have all of the symptoms that come with coming off of this that we’ve mentioned and they’re severe. And eventually, your body goes into kind of a fight or flight reflex. And then what happens is, is usually people are so worn out, so tired, they go way up in their dose that whatever they’re on, they actually it goes up because they just want to rest and feel better and be out of any potential withdrawal state. So they increase their dose and then it inhibits them from wanting to think they can get off of it because it’s such a brutally hard experience, then they often wait much longer than they wanted to until they kind of end up in that cycle that I was talking about initially, where there’s just so shut down and tired of it that they reach out or get on the Internet and start to look and find something and then call us.

David Livingston, LMFT: And honestly, the thing about our program that is really amazing is that we get it done so quickly. And it’s not that there isn’t any dysregulation. It’s impossible to get off this without any dysregulation. But the fact that you’re done with the detox and then really you just need to rest and get sleep. And the fact that you’re not titrating the medication, it’s done and so you’re not ramping up, you’re actually feeling better and better. It increases that sense of hope rather than decreasing it. And so rather than sort of feeling like you’re just holding on. You actually start to feel like you’re getting stronger and you are. And then we help with sleep. And so you shrink that period and people get off it and, you know, just everybody gets off it and it’s easier on the body.

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: And I think there is a huge factor too, David is the medications we use to eliminate physical cravings. So if you speak to patients, most people that have been through cold turkey or rehabs, the first thing they say is, you know, “Afterwards I was crawling out of my skin. That’s all I could think of.” Being able to eliminate physical cravings is a tremendous part of this because if you don’t feel like, you know, again, you’re going to crawl out of your skin. Now you can be emotionally present to deal with whatever issues you have. So I think it’s A. Not going through unnecessary suffering, I don’t think it helps anybody. B. Almost all patients will get through a detoxification if the detoxification is a) humane and b) safe.

Dwight Hurst, LPC: And it occurs to me that if you’re going through that treatment, then you also have people around you. And if you’re doing a good one, medical professionals who are going to, I think being accepted and supported like someone who has a health problem rather than being accused and shamed by, obviously that automatically starts to help just by having people treat me like with respect.

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: I tell Dwight, all patients, you’ll be admitted to a full-service accredited hospital, like if you came for any other medical condition. That’s how we start the conversation. Yeah, and that’s the truth, that you walk into a hospital where they’re treated by nurses and doctors, like if they came in for any other health issues. And we’re going to get them through the detoxification process as safely, as comfortably as we can possibly be. Not everybody goes through anesthesia, and that’s what I’m trying to say. So I’m not just talking about rapid detoxification. I’m talking about a medical detoxification for alcohol, for opioids, for benzodiazepines, whatever that is, whatever the issue is, A) should be treated by physicians first. Get you through the withdrawal, get you through the detox, use nonaddictive medications to block physical cravings. Maybe the person does have a dysregulation. You know, maybe they do have severe depression or other mental health issues that will need some kind of long-term medication, but you won’t be able to assess that. Until we can put the physical dependence on the substance behind them. And then once you assess that we can try to find the best treatment that will give the patient the best quality of life, because that’s all that matters. There shouldn’t be a protocol for everybody or an expectation for everybody. It’s truly about having the best quality of life, whatever that might be, without any preconceived ideas.

Dwight Hurst, LPC: When we’re looking at things that inhibit us or things that help us with treatment, I can’t help but think about other people, the role that other people play, right? Either in inhibiting us from getting treatment or helping us when we’re in there. We’ve done whole episodes on that, but I just wonder if we want to touch real quick on that thought of how can other people inhibit me from engaging in treatment or help me when I’m there? Probably not the same people. I’m just guessing as I’m saying that.

David Livingston, LMFT: Yeah. In both cases, the things that inhibit I mean think we covered a lot of the external factors that can contribute. But you know, I think in terms of just having friends and family who want you to be well and genuinely are willing to sort of support you in that process and help you realize that it’s you that matters. It’s not the chemicals, it’s not anything else. And they want you back is to be your is your healthiest self. And they and that’s the goal. And it’s the same thing in the treatment as well that the focus is you’re both saying is just on the individual and what is going to help them in terms of their specific needs and understanding the vulnerabilities and really trying to sort of support them in that and that that’s that’s what gets people into treatment. Well, and helps them in treatment.

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: I think there is a consideration for the people around you. They have their own fears. They have their own issues. So what we expect from the people around us when we need lifting up, you know, has to be, um, has to be very considerate of their own feelings that maybe we don’t know all of it.

Dwight Hurst, LPC: Yeah. Good communication, then, is one of the differences in whether or not other people help me or or or hold me back. I guess the relationship, the good communication can certainly make a huge difference in that and sometimes even facilitated in a maybe couples or family therapy or even, you know, some type of assistance that way, or even just if it works, just sit down and talk, whatever it is that we need to do to get that good communication is a key and turning that into a strength. Right.

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: Yeah. Well, you know, I the reason the reason I brought that up is because I often see people that have somebody in their family that is going through issues of substance use, and then you have the people around them that are fighting that battle with them for so many years. And often I see those other people also a bit, you know, dysregulated due to all the anxiety and fear they feel and they can’t sleep and they start having secondary effects from this. The other person. Does that make sense, David? Do you understand where I’m going?

David Livingston, LMFT: I think so, yeah. That you can either encourage someone or inhibit them and that it really it’s that they you know depending on how what someone’s struggle has been and the length of it it can have an effect on the people around them. But there’s a saying in psychology that it’s the relationship that matters. Right. So that all things said, um, it’s a relationship that you establish that matters. And I think I see that primarily and I think it’s what you’re talking about. And there’s certainly ways you can tax a relationship in ways you can be supportive and really help each other. And that’s, you know, that can reverberate depending on things. Um, but, but often the people who have the most successful outcomes really feel like they have the support of people around them.

Dwight Hurst, LPC: What do we talk about moving away from a blanket approach or a policy-based approach? And we look at a person-centered approach, right? I know that that’s something that’s very important, is accepting someone where they’re at when you’re either you’re a support person, a family member, whether you’re a treatment professional, a doctor, you know, treating someone as an individual and accepting them for who they are and where they’re at is very important. But it occurred to me too, from the standpoint of the person entering treatment who needs the help, trying to have a form of acceptance of myself in the terms and really accepting whatever is happening. If I get into treatment and I have to do this or have to do that, or maybe I’ve tried and failed before or whatever has happened, trying to accept that this is my own health and my own, you know, I’m experimenting with different things. I’m trying different things. I’m listening to professionals and accepting the setbacks and as well, without beating myself up. Right.

David Livingston, LMFT: I might take a little different. So? So sometimes. There’s a usefulness in beating yourself up and other times it’s not helpful at all.

Dwight Hurst, LPC: It’s something you’re very good at. I mean, this is something that I look forward to these conversations because I feel like David’s always going to say, Well, here’s a negative thing, but here’s how you do it in a healthy way. I love this.

David Livingston, LMFT: Because acceptance doesn’t mean that we’re just going to accept everything as it is. And when I you know, part part of my responsibility is when I hear somebody talking about things in which they’re not really bearing down. And, you know, the hard part of them that needs to be a little stronger in this area is just acting as if it’s not a big deal. That’s not good for them. And that’s going to reverberate and you know and so you can there’s we have to be able to be hard enough on ourselves that we take things seriously enough and we recognize dangers and responsibilities not only to our but to others. And so acceptance doesn’t mean that we don’t have hard parts of ourselves internally and externally, because there needs to be. Otherwise, you don’t know where to stand in the world and you don’t know where to stand in regards to cravings or your ambivalence about going back on the drug. You know, that has to get developed in a human being. And a lot of times people don’t know how to do that or there’s more of a condemnation which isn’t the same. Right. It’s a subtle difference, but it’s very different between sort of condemning someone or making someone feel ashamed than helping them feel strong. And that’s I guess what I’m parsing.

Dwight Hurst, LPC: You’re saying where do you find the cutoff is or what do you think are some good general boundaries around what how much is too much of the beating ourselves up as you put it. Right? That may be hard to answer that. That’s a little vague.

David Livingston, LMFT: I think you I think in part you listen to how people are talking about things. You listen to the tone they take. I mean, some people are just it’s just like they just are full of shame and guilt and agony and they’re just agonizing over it. And you want to relieve some of that. That’s too much. And, you know, the guilt, the guilt that they needed to feel got them to treatment so that they don’t need the guilt anymore because they’ve already corrected the problem. They don’t need it and they don’t need the shame. It won’t help them. Um, but they do need to recognize strongly the factors that have led them. So, so sometimes the factor ironically, that that they need to do to get stronger is, is to lighten up on themselves, to not be full of responsibility all the time to actually go play and take a vacation for the first time in ten years and not feel like they’ve got to. Right? And sometimes and sometimes what I need to do is strongly kind of push down on that. Hey, you know, you. Yeah. You take care of the whole damn world all the time, and eventually, you’re going to crack and. And here’s where you’re going to be, right? So that’s kind of a confrontation, but it’s very different than beating somebody up.

Dwight Hurst, LPC: Yeah. Wasn’t isn’t that the old sort of the old saying in therapy and stuff is that guilt is motivating, shame is is crippling? Right. When we get to the point of I’m ashamed of myself, meaning I’m terrible versus I feel guilt, which is like, I don’t like what I’m doing. I want to change it.

David Livingston, LMFT: Yeah. Mean, I’m maybe a little more hard core than most therapists. I think a little bit of shame for all human beings is probably a good thing, but too much of it is is not good at all.

Dwight Hurst, LPC: Well, at some point it’s like, what’s the difference there between shame and just a self-evaluation, Right? Or humility, I guess would be another word for that, maybe. Or would you say that that’s good? Well, as we’re we’re we’re kind of at that point where I always like to ask the magical question, what else would we say about this before we are wrapping up for today?

David Livingston, LMFT: There are times where I will see people who have done everything right, literally, and they can’t understand how they ended up on opioids and they feel so upset about it. And. That that what they that there was such a sense of of of a need to always be there for everybody else and never for themselves until they feel terrible. They’re doing everything right in terms of their way of thinking of the world and yet they feel terrible. And then the opioid helps them feel better temporarily, and that becomes the, you know, the motivation for it. And so, like you’re saying, it’s like it’s every individual. And then there’s there’s others that, you know, that that’s not the case at all.

Dwight Hurst, LPC: And we’re going to call that good for today. Thank you so much for listening. And, you know, remember, one of the main things that stood out about this conversation was that we can easily fall into something that inhibits us from treatment. But that very same thing, if we try to engage in a healthy way, can also help us once we get there. And so if you’re experiencing something that seems like an obstacle, don’t don’t give up. You know, try to find a way to push through.

Dwight Hurst, LPC: Or as we’ve talked about today, find a way to see if there’s a strength buried in there somewhere, if there’s a way to exercise that that will help us. This podcast is a production of Waismann Method Opioid Treatment Specialists and is produced by Popped Collar Productions. Our music is the song medical by clean mind sounds, and you can reach out to us through the email info@opiates.com or go on Twitter @opiates or any other of the social the social media out there. As you get on there, please let us know if there are questions you’d like us to address on the show or if you have general questions about addiction, about detoxification or anything like unto that. For Clare Waismann and David Livingston, I’m Dwight Hurst, and remember to keep asking questions. If you ask questions, you’ll find answers. And whenever you can find answers, you can find hope. We’ll be back with you again soon. Bye-bye.