Navigating Resistance: Convincing a Loved One to Seek Addiction Treatment

Are you grappling with the complex challenge of convincing a loved one to seek treatment for addiction? In a world where denial and resistance often overshadow the cry for help, navigating this delicate journey can feel like an uphill battle.

Join our expert panel Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II, David B. Livingston LMFT, alongside Dwight Hurst, CMHC, as they unravel the layers of communication, empathy, and understanding crucial in guiding a loved one toward the path of recovery.

This discussion isn’t just about the problems; it’s a foray into the solutions, offering practical advice, and groundbreaking insights into overcoming the barriers of addiction treatment. We dissect real-life scenarios, addressing the common fears and misconceptions that hinder the journey to recovery. From understanding the psychological underpinnings of denial to mastering the art of empathetic communication and setting healthy boundaries, this episode stands as a pivotal source of guidance and insight. It’s an invaluable resource for anyone touched by addiction – be it personally or through someone they care about.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Addiction, Recovery and Mental Health, a podcast by Waismann Method Opioid Treatment Specialists. I am your co-host, Dwight Hurst. I’m a clinical mental health counselor, as well as the lucky one to be able to be the producer of this show. And as that, one of the luckiest things about that is I get to associate with such cool experts on opioid addiction, dependence, recovery, and just all things that have to do with the psychology around that. I’m joined today by Clare Waismann, who is a substance use disorder certified counselor and registered addiction specialist. Clare is, of course, the creator and founder of the Waismann Method Opioid Treatment Detoxification Specialists and the Domus Aftercare Retreat. Um, also, of course, joined by David Livingston, who is the clinical mind behind the therapy branch of the organization, as well as one of the, uh, best clinical minds that I’ve met in my years as well as far as an expert of the psychology of healing and recovery and sobriety, and taking it to such a good and a deep, individualized treatment level. So hello guys. Welcome back to the recording. Hi.

David B. Livingston LMFT: And thank you so much for calling me. Cool. I can’t tell you how great that is.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Hey, you know what? You and I both have kids. We know that they still think we’re cool, right? Um.

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: No, please.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Just let me have my delusions, David. So about myself. But I know you’re cool, and I am, uh, really excited today. As everybody knows, if you joined us, if you’ve listened to the audio or if you’re watching the video right now of the podcast, um, you know that we are driven by questions. Your questions, our questions, the great questions that have attended the addiction world. And today those questions are going to be under the umbrella of resistance, uh, navigating resistance in those who we would like to see get some treatment, how do we work with or hopefully even convince a loved one to seek out treatment when that’s something that they need? Um, so a lot of, a lot of really, uh, really salient little nuggets here that we’re going to get on. And I, as I always say, if you think to yourself, do I know anyone whose life is touched by addiction, the answer is yes. And it might even be yours. Uh, and you might not even realize it yet. And so we all have use for these principles. So let’s dive right into it. Uh, guys, what are the the first question that we have is really about understanding what resistance is and why it exists. So let’s say why do some individuals resist treatment so much? What’s the kind of, uh, psychology behind those issues of denial, resistance, people trying to stay out of treatment?

David B. Livingston LMFT: You want me to start? You want to. Clare, you can start.

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: I was just going to say that, uh, in my experience, what I have seen, it all starts with accepting you need help, and that is huge. So everything else you know can come later. You know, expectations, the fear of, uh, uh, failure, the fear of, uh, you know, what people are going to expect from me, all the above. But I think accepting that you need help is a major step in, you know, uh, looking into getting to the path of recovery. Go ahead. David. Sorry.

David B. Livingston LMFT: Yeah. For sure. Um. So I think I think why you’re bringing up sort of what inhibits, um, anyone from feeling, from accepting that they need help, even though it may be really apparent and obvious. Um, uh, there can be many reasons. So, uh, one of the reasons often is that they don’t want to that, that there’s a lot of shame and guilt associated and a feeling of failure. And, um, as long as it’s. And that actually going to treatment, um, and somehow announces that that was true, that I failed something didn’t go right. I’ve done poorly while, um, you know, the function of guilt, you know, the healthy function of guilt is okay, I need to correct something. Something’s off. I need to pay attention to it. And so it’s one of the things I say to patients after I meet. And many feel very guilty that I’m like, listen, your guilt did what it needed. You’re here, you’re detoxed. You don’t need to deal with this anymore. That part of what that that healthy function of guilt did what it needed to do and that’s great. You’re here. And so part of it is beginning to sort of reframe and understand kind of and then individually, each person is motivated and has very individual reasons. Some people are afraid of the future. And and it’s a coping mechanism they’ve been using to kind of deal with some things that maybe they’re others think they need to deal with differently. And probably they are. Um, so there’s maybe a start.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: How do we talk to someone about that without activating and bumping into that kind of over guilt or shame, as, as many people often call it? Uh, if we’re talking to our loved one trying to stay out of the trap of just let’s fight about whether or not you have a problem. Do you have any thoughts about that and communication?

David B. Livingston LMFT: Um, well, first of all, power struggles lead nowhere. Okay. And the best way I know to get out of a power struggle is to, um, remind the person of what they mean to you. Um, that, you know, you’re saying this because you love them and you’re worried about them. You want them to be well, and you get away from the issue of whether they do it. You let them have some agency back, but you appeal to them as a human being and say, look, I don’t want to see anything bad happen to you. I’m really worried. And here’s why. And, you know, I’m, you know, and you start so that they can then think about it on their own. They don’t feel like you’re just, you know, pushing them and, and um, and again, it’s best when they can come to it on their own. Yeah. You’re right. I’ve thought about it. That type of thing.

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: David, I often, um, talk to moms that, uh, or parents that call me and say, you know, I don’t know what to do anymore because it’s so obvious that they need treatment. The loved one, usually, you know, the son or the daughter needs treatment, but they keep telling me that they can do it on their own. And this has gone on for years, and I can’t get them anywhere because they keep telling me they can do it on their own, where obviously they haven’t. What would you your would be your suggestion in a case like this?

David B. Livingston LMFT: I think it’s fair to say just what you did. Look, you’ve been telling me this for years. It hasn’t happened, and I’m terrified you’re going to die. Something bad is going to happen to you. And you know I’m suffering watching you, you know, in this state. And you know, I want you to get well for yourself and for me. And I don’t want to feel terrified. And whatever you’ve been doing hasn’t gotten you there. And why don’t we work together and think together and figure it out so that it feels like you’re on board with them? And again, you’re giving them agency again, right? The worst thing to do and what leads to power struggles and more and more resistance is when somebody feels, um, like you’re taking their sense of agency away, their sense of, you know, and so the idea of working with them, which is really what a therapeutic stance is. Okay. Let’s see what we can do together because, um, so something like that.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: I feel like, uh, if somebody out there wants to Google something, uh, that helps with this, too. The thing I’m, I’m reading between the lines you’re saying is active listening. If you want to brush up on, uh, because if you listen to someone and you ask them meaningful questions, a lot of times I think that’s where we find that people, even if they are in denial, it’s not like they’ve never noticed some or they’ve never been scared of the addiction process. They might actually already have some of the things in mind that you’re that you think they don’t. Or either way, the more they talk and you listen, uh, I find that that there’s a reason why that’s such a big part of therapy, right? Is it helps people to hear their own echo. It helps people to listen to themselves and also to feel cared about. It’s not just I’m not just my problem in my loved one’s eyes. I’m actually a person who maybe has a problem. And I think that that that seems like that would be huge in this, these conversations.

David B. Livingston LMFT: That’s a great idea. I mean, questioning so that they can say like, okay, like, uh, with Clare’s question. Um, okay, can you tell me what’s what’s worked and what hasn’t worked and trying to get off it? And you know what, what do you think you need? And begin to open it up and then have them speak, just like you’re saying. It’s far more powerful as they begin to dig into it. Think about it, talk about it. It’s far more powerful than usually what we what we can say to them. Um, so that’s I think that’s really good.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Yeah. It leads into, uh, naturally into one of our questions here, which is what are some ways to communicate that communicate empathy and that, uh, avoid confrontation? We were touching on that already. But I if someone sits down and it’s like, boy, we’ve had this conversation a million times and it always turns into, you know, X, Y, and Z, whether it’s fighting or denial or someone stomping out of the room. Um, what would you say are some ways to communicate that empathy to people?

David B. Livingston LMFT: You want to take this for starters?

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: No, no. Go ahead.

David B. Livingston LMFT: Um. The. I think it’s situational depending on where the person is at, who they are. So it’s hard to speak, you know, entirely in a global way. But, um, one of the things, one of the things I say is, look, you know, it’s just some chemicals, okay? But they’re incredibly dangerous. The only thing that matters is your life and you and you being well, that’s that’s all we’re working towards. And whatever it takes to do that, that’s that’s the goal here. And so you move it into the, into the realm of health. You move it out of the realm of being punitive, and you move it into a sense of like, I want you to be well. And people hear that very differently.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Hmm.

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: I think. Right. Um, you know, um, what David is saying, it is incredibly powerful and effective because often, uh, things snowball and people become overwhelmed, not just the person that needs it, but the family as well. So when people talk about treatment, they talk about, you know, you’re going to get treatment, you’re going to be happy, your life’s going to be wonderful. You’re going to be, uh, able to go back to school or go back to work and all those things, you know, create that anxiety of, you know, what am I getting into? What if I fail? What if I don’t meet the expectations? So when David said it is just chemicals. So let’s start from that I think it is really important to put things, you know, on the right, um, level, you know, in different phases. So first, the most important thing is to get, get you off those chemicals that can kill you anytime. So let’s talk about the detox. After we deal with whatever comes, we’ll deal together. If you can’t handle life on life’s terms, if some fear some trauma surface. I think if you give the person you know, the understanding that, um, all we’re doing here is looking for a healthier path. Not a perfect path, not a successful path, not an end of victory with flags in the end, I think we’re going to take a lot more of the anxiety and a bit more of, you know, the acceptance that it’s okay to get help. It’s, you know, first is a physiological issue. Let’s deal with that. And then we go from there.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: It occurred to me, as you were talking, that one of the greatest questions someone could ask, especially if they’ve gone the rounds with this before, would be to say something like, hey, why don’t you want to? And now really? Seriously, tell me. I want to know. I’ve asked you, I’ve said you should, and you don’t want to. I’d love to, you know, tell me more about why. And I think having a mindset shift, especially if you don’t have a history of addiction or don’t know a lot about addiction and your loved one is caught up in it, instead of coming to them with a mindset of why don’t you just stop, come at them with a with a question of trying to say, when I ask you to go to treatment, what am I asking? What’s that like for you? That idea, I’d love to know. And so in other words, instead of saying, why don’t you stop? It’s more like, why don’t you stop? I mean, I really want to know. There’s a sincerity there of saying, explain your addiction to me. You’re the expert. Um, and I think that can be very empowering when people are treated like the expert of their own problem because it’s their problem. So of course they’re the expert in that, right?

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: Especially when they understand that, uh, the door is open to hear what you’re really feeling regardless, regardless of what that is. And, uh, you know, whatever that is, somebody is there to support them, you know, to hold that heaviness with them so they don’t have to carry it on their own.

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: Mm.

David B. Livingston LMFT: Well that’s a, that’s a, that it, it creates a template for actually what a whole treatment is, which is you come as you are. Oh you’re having trouble sleeping. Let’s deal with that. You’re, you’re really anxious. Okay. Let’s, let’s, let’s help with that and see what, what might help. And you know you so the you come as you are, there isn’t an expectation that you have to be anywhere than other than that. And um, and then that’s usually a big relief so that you just can you, you know, the, the first part of, of um, getting well, I think, is being able to bear yourself and actually learn how to just be again. So if you’re feeling pushed and pulled everywhere, you never get a chance to sort of settle into yourself and just experience what it is to be with yourself again. For starters, now everything else comes in time. But I think that’s that’s the starting point. Um.

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: And, and I think there’s also a fear, David, of people that have been to treatment centers. A fear of losing themselves because John, that is John Smith once he enters rehab. He is going to be. John, I am an addict and I always will be an addict. So there’s also the fear of getting into, uh, what they call chronic. And you know. Forever treatment that you can never come up. So I think that is something to that. We need to, you know, to look into and say, is that really effective? Is that really working for people?

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: And that’s that. That element of what am I being asked to do? Uh, it’s worth a question or two about what has the person’s previous experience been, because even if they haven’t been to treatment, my experience is most people have tried here and there to either, you know, lower their use or even stop. And if they’ve been in treatment, your point is really strong, Clare, to ask someone, what was your experience like? You went to that rehab and you keep telling me you hated it. Why? Uh, maybe I don’t want to ask you to go back to a place like that if wow, I agree. Oh, that sounds bad. Uh, let. Can we. What if we find a place that doesn’t do that? It doesn’t treat you that way. I don’t like that either. Um, I think those kind of questions, and really, it comes back to listening actively and treating the person as a person. Uh, there’s a question that we have here that’s very, very interesting to me. In particular, I think it opens up a couple of different things, which is what are some different types of interventions and how do we set that up. And I want I’ll throw this in here, my little qualification for this question, which is when I hear the terms intervention, we all get an idea of this right. We all get an idea. I think some people think of the classic intervention where I walk into a room and here’s all these people and they tell me, we all love you, and you’re getting in this car right now, and you’re going to this. We’ve already decided, um, and kind of the usefulness of that or the experience I’ve known of people who didn’t maybe care for that, uh, or what else does intervention really mean? We can go a couple different ways with this. So how do we plan that if we’re going to try to intervene with someone? What what should that mean to us?

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: I think timing is everything, so finding the appropriate time where somebody doesn’t feel cornered. Or throw at your faces when things are out of control. Um, you know, bringing up treatment when you’re threatening somebody. Um, so all those things are important. So if you want to intervene in for somebody, you know, to change their path, or at least to get into a better one. Uh, you got to do it when, uh, the time is appropriate, when I believe you are one on one, when they are more, um, open to receive, you know, your love, your support, other than when they are, you know, feeling threatened by any reason. David.

David B. Livingston LMFT: Yeah, right. Um. Um. It’s very it’s very, uh, uh, specific to the individual. I know people who say, you know, someone read me the riot act and told me I’m in trouble, you know? And I was like, and it felt like caring. It woke me up. I know other people who hear stuff like that, and it turns them off and it feels like being bullied or, you know, and they don’t like it at all. So it on some people respond very differently to different types of how you speak to them, you know, and a lot of it has to do with who they are. So think about who you’re talking to and also pay attention when you’re having the conversation. See what helps open the door and notice when you’re closing the door. If you’re paying attention and thinking like that, you can actually begin to notice it. Um, this is this is a bit of an art, like all good communication. And so as, as you, you know, if you know the person, um, that helps.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Um, do you feel like it raises the stakes a little too high in regards to anxiety? If we view this as one conversation instead of, uh, maybe an ongoing conversation. We say, I’m going to sit you down and tell you you have a problem. By the end of this conversation, something needs to happen. I just, I just wonder if that is unrealistic and also taking away the agency of the other person too much to where it’s it’s not going to go well or less likely to go well.

David B. Livingston LMFT: You want to take it, Clare? I don’t think anybody likes to be told what to do. Uh. Almost never. Sometimes you do need to. Sometimes people are in dangerous, dangerous situations. And they need to know that you. They need to feel your seriousness, your concern at a level in which you sort of rattle the cage in the right way so that you’re they it feels like caring and people. I really believe this. I, this is I really believe that that um, we all know the intention. Like we can feel the intention behind what’s being conveyed. And when the intention is right, you’re almost always okay. Right? And how you do it and whatever, you know. And so but they will know where you’re coming from. Uh, so.

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: You know, David, I also, you know, often, uh, struggle with, uh, when people talk to me about guilt, you know, uh, especially parents. So, you know, when, um, the other parent talked to me and say, you know, I told him how much he’s hurting the kids and how much he’s hurting me. And, you know, all the things that he has done, you know, to, um, that is going to affect our children for the rest of their lives. Um, and I always wonder because sometimes people have become so, um, loveless towards themselves. That, um, if you try to get them to help themselves, there’s nothing there. So you need to bring the ones they love. But in the other hand, I never know, you know what I’m saying? Is that effective? Is that, you know, hurtful and I understand is unique to each situation. But, uh, especially when you’re talking about parents and there’s children involved and, you know, you’re being drunk or, um. Nowadays with fentanyl, knowing your father is taking, you know, quite a bit of opiates. And it’s it’s a difficult and risky situation for, you know, the whole environment. But how do you approach somebody like this? Do you use, um, you know, the, uh, consequences to the loved ones that are in that house or. Do you try to, um, you know, not make them feel guilty about it?

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Mhm.

David B. Livingston LMFT: I ask people when I’m working with them a lot. Uh, how, uh, how are you experiencing this conversation? Is what we’re talking about feeling helpful to you? I literally will just, uh, I’ll ask him specifically because I don’t know. And to answer your question, we can’t know, like, we we don’t know. We don’t really know how anybody’s experiencing anything, and it’s too much pressure. I know, uh, unless I know someone really, really well, I can’t know, so I ask, and usually they’re grateful that I’m asking because they’re like, yeah, I don’t like this or yeah, actually, this is really helpful to me. And then you can open that up. Can you tell me why you don’t like it, why you do like it. Right? And then they also feel like they, they’re, you know, there’s going to be a real dialog and a negotiation of things, which is a much better place to be. But I ask.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: I think one of the dangers that exists when we do know someone really, really well is that, uh, we’re often right about what they’re going through. And so therefore we think we’re always right. I mean, especially true with our kids. It’s like I’ve known them their whole lives. I’ve seen them grow up. I’m pretty sure I know what they’re going to do. And so therefore I think I always know what they’re going to do just because I’m right. Frequently, maybe. And maybe I’m not right as frequently as I think. As a matter of fact, especially with their internal world. Right. Um, there’s a question that comes up a lot with people is what kind of boundaries do I set? I don’t want to enable my loved one. Right. Uh, that’s a word that comes up a lot that I think can be tricky. So what do I, you know, do I kick them out of the house and then that’ll make them more likely to seek out help? Or do I, you know, try to keep them in the house so that I can kind of monitor and help them. And how do obviously it’s very individualized, but what are some, some principles, you’d say, of how to make decisions about what boundaries we set with our loved ones?

David B. Livingston LMFT: You want to take that?

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: I think that that’s an impossible, impossible question. I mean, um, obviously, if, you know, is risking the life of, you know, of people in the house emotionally, you’re always, you know, there’s always going to be a damage. It’s at what level, you know, uh, things are and I think for parents that I speak to all the time, all the time when they say that I told them not to come back. And then all I can think is, did I throw him, you know, to his last… You know? So it’s I think any loved one lives with that guilt of, um, if I embrace, am I supporting an unhealthy behavior? But if I put the limits am my throwing him to the edge?

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Mhm.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Yeah. And if there’s not a sense of danger to others in the House, I think, I think people have to make that decision too, saying am I throwing something out just because I disapprove of the way they’re handling their addiction problem or am I throwing them? Am I asking them to leave because they keep bringing strange people in and giving copies of my key to people? And I’ve got younger. They have younger siblings. I mean, there’s so much that you have to rate and like you say, I think the concept sometimes of enabling that that is kicked around or the concept of especially rock bottom. Uh, you’re supposed to wait till your loved one hits rock bottom and don’t rescue them and this and that. And it’s like, as you just put it. Well, what is rock bottom, death? I mean, you know, uh, how do we define that? That’s such a vague terms that I find it’s almost useless in my opinion.

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: Yeah, I speak to parents all the time that are told by meetings, you know, uh, close the door and wait until they hit rock bottom. Um, rock bottom nowadays is very common, and rock bottom is the end. Um, me and, uh, David just saw, you know, somebody very young that passed. Um. And you know, I know there’s a lot of guilt involved with the parents because they said, you know, enough. It’s you gotta be careful with rock bottom. And again, on the other hand, um. A lot of times you have to protect the other loved ones that live in your house, and if the end result is tragic, you would probably be tragic at any point anyway.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Mhm.

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: So it’s pretty much trying to see the future and nobody has a crystal ball. So I think if we do what’s in our heart with the most selfless of intentions.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Mhm.

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: I think you know that’s the best way to guide us.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: What guidance would you have for people if they’re seeking out advice? Many people will just go to a friend or family member who has it, maybe their own experience. Sometimes they’ll reach out to a community, uh, group or something like, and this is saying, for a loved one who’s preparing to have these conversations and not sure what to do, uh, I’ve known a lot of people that will actually go find maybe an outpatient therapist who has addiction experience, and they’ll go and have their own, uh, sessions where they kind of talk about how should I approach my loved one? Uh, I mean, and then, of course, you got TikTok and subreddit. I mean, people go and find all kinds of different information. Uh, where should people seek for information when they’re trying to figure out how to individually approach their loved one?

David B. Livingston LMFT: Well, for starters, they should all watch our podcast for sure.

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: That’s.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Yeah, that’s what I was going for. I thought it was number one.

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: I agree. Um, I, I’m, I really would like David to talk about this because. Often when people seek. Somebody. Oh, the sun comes, they say, oh, let’s talk to the cousin because she had an addiction issue. Um, the conversation and the responses are usually very generic. And, you know, we addicts. You know, and.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Often reflects just our own experience. When we’ve been through something, it’s easy to just say, well, here’s what I had to do. And unfortunately, we see that even in in professional treatment programs, people go and pay for is you might have someone conducting a group who’s like, oh, y’all are in denial because you’re not doing it the right way, and the right way is the way I did it or the way that I have heard, you know, that that type of thing. And we have to be careful about that.

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: So I truly believe you. You should, uh, seek someone like David who would look at the person and not the condition. Um, because, uh, you know, once you focus on the condition, often the person is unseen. Um, so I would, I would, uh, personally find, uh, a real professional, not somebody that had the same condition. And, um, you know, there is there’s sometimes, David, you know, we have a patient that, uh, the mother wants them to go to rehab, and David will tell me that would be the worst thing for him right now. Mhm. Um, where other patients, you know going would be a positive experience. So again, uh, a real professional because when we look for a cardiologist, we don’t look for the person that had the most heart attacks. Um, understand that this is a condition that needs, um, real treatment by, uh, medical professionals or health care professionals and not, uh, you know. But go ahead, David. That’s that’s my thought.

David B. Livingston LMFT: Yeah. Right. Well, you. You don’t run your own program, whatever it might be on somebody you. I mean, the reason that therapy, the reason for listening from my perspective is you’re really learning. You’re figuring out who is sitting in front of you and you’re getting to know them. And, um, uh, it’s not that I don’t have anything to say. I almost always have something I can say. Uh, but but whether or not what I say is helpful or hurtful,both are possible, whether it helps them or not. And so when you talk about an intervention or anything, you have to understand that’s a territory you’re in big time. So it’s not just words. You’re talking about actions that can have a lot of consequences. So you need to begin to look at all sides of things very deeply. And one of the things that frustrates me is, is that I think people just say, well, you got to do this. You got to do that. That’s not good. You might be right part of the time, some of the time, and you can be horribly wrong. And um, so I would say first and foremost, move with caution and, you know, and really try to sort of hang in there and look, the best leverage we have with anybody from my position always is, is the kind of relationship we have with them. If we really have a good relationship with someone, we have far more leverage. So build a relationship and and also ask yourself, am I? Is what I’m doing damaging that? And um, you know, and look, this is hard stuff. I mean, I’m speaking from this, you know, sitting here when you get in the real world of all the things that are happening, it’s harder. Um, but I’ve seen that, you know, a lot to I’m not naive to that, but, um, so I empathize with the people going through this families and the people who are struggling with the addiction. They often don’t know what to do themselves.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Yeah. And when we talk about loved ones, by definition it’s someone we love, which always energizes us in a very different way than it does when we’re talking theoretically. I would say that when I, when I pick up from this is if you are seeking advice and information, it may be good to seek various sources, but if you’re talking to someone who is not asking you questions and getting you to to think about your loved one as an individual, it’s probably a good, good sense to go look somewhere else for some information too. And hopefully from a medical somewhere, somewhere you’re drawing information from a medical professional as well. Not that my cousin doesn’t know something, but uh, to also get that from people who have that licensure training, all that stuff.

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: But. Dwight, unfortunately, you know, in the field we’re in, a lot of the professionals have the same answer. They need three months. So the person calls there the first time. Oh no, they need at least three months and then three months of sober living and then three months of outpatient. They haven’t met the person. They haven’t, you know, heard about, you know, this person. Maybe they have psychiatric needs. Um, you know, um.

David B. Livingston LMFT: Oh, boy. I could speak on that so long.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Um, absolutely.

David B. Livingston LMFT: Right.

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: And do you know, do you know how many, um, ladies call here crying because they have been carrying that dependence for so long? For so long? Because everywhere they called, all they said is you’re an addict and you need to go inpatient for three months. And these are people that had severe pain issues, medical issues. There’s nothing in their body that has a behavioral issue. Um, so and again, you have others that, you know, had severe trauma and their fear of unmasking those things and being in the, uh, facility where they have to sit in a meeting and say, hi, I’m Sue. You know, my father raped me 30 times. My brothers raped. It’s it’s a lot. It’s a lot. I think a lot of these places are not, um, ready. Or qualified to open that can of worms. And once that patient leaves over there, they have no other option but to relapse.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: And now that that’s been stirred up and there’s not the treatment and the, the safeguards and the training to be able to work with those things. And that’s I think also anyone you talk to for feedback or advice, if they don’t talk about the limitations that we just said, you know, someone comes to me and I’ve had this happen, someone sets an appointment, comes in and says, I want to talk about my loved one. I’ll say, great, let’s process it. But we’re talking about you and I don’t know your loved one. And not to put myself up there, I’m just saying that hopefully the person who you’re talking to, it’s a good sign. If they say all the things you just said, here’s my limitations. I can talk to you generally about addiction and try to help you sort through your own decision-making process. And that’s what we’re looking for. This leads very naturally into the last question I have on our list, which is what about when your loved one does enter treatment, ongoing treatment, aftercare? How do you best offer that ongoing support so that you are a maybe an asset or a help to them, and not maybe not intentionally contributing to obstacles in their process? So how do we how do we feel about that?

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: I’m going to say a small sentence, and I want really, David, to navigate that because that’s his forte. I say through faces. And with realistic expectations, you know, except the person in front of you. That’s not a project, that’s a person. But, David, go ahead.

David B. Livingston LMFT: Well, that’s that’s it. Uh, when someone. I’m asked all the time. All the time. Well, what should I do? Um. My response is always ah ah, for starters. Okay, not that I won’t have opinions, I do, but for starters, it’s I don’t know, let’s think about it together. Okay, so because I don’t know and I don’t want to be seen as somebody who’s got all the answers because it’s an ongoing process and, and we have to discover and figure it out together. And it only works best when it’s done that way, as far as I can see. Um, I don’t want to become I am an authority, I guess, in a sense, but I don’t want to become an authority figure. Um, that is not the best type of relationship in a treatment. Um, and, and so I know my role, but my role is to help them get better and multiple ways as needed. Um, and so and, and I also don’t want. Right. So I mean, kind of goes back to what we were talking about. I’m not even sure I’m answering specifically your question about when people get home and, you know, how do you help them? I guess it’s kind of the same thing. You just talk to them. You you, I, I’ve been doing this for 30 years and I don’t know what to do.

David B. Livingston LMFT: I have to learn and discover by talking with them, and that’s how it goes. So if you know, because like you were both pointing out you, I’m going to be wrong as often as I am right. And, and, um, uh, and it’s important that they get involved. Right? So we were talking a little bit earlier about, um, uh, I think parents who feel so guilty and so forth, but what they really need is, is whoever’s struggling with the addiction to start to feel some guilt themselves. Okay. Not so much that it inhibits them or puts them into a bad place. Not that much. Just enough. So they go, oh, I care about, you know, my life and everybody else. And sometimes that’s hard because especially on opioids, what does opioids do? Well it numbs you and it also inhibits fear. It inhibits pain. It’s a depressant. Most of the people we you know so it shuts you down over time. So it also is inhibiting the things that you need to be able to feel. And so what you’ll see dynamically in a family is other parts of the family will start to feel all the things that the patient has split off and not feeling. And so, you know, that’s uh, so, so that’s a complex thing to kind of navigate.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Mhm. Wow.

Dwight Hurst, CMHC: Well a wealth of information as we’re able to do each episode, I find that, uh answering these kinds of questions is going to be uh, helpful to people that are out there. I really appreciate the chance we have to get together. And as always, appreciate, uh, Clare and David, your time and your expertise that we bring to this. Everyone out there. Uh, please be aware that we want to hear from you. We want to know what your questions are. You’d like us to answer about mental health, addiction, recovery. And it can be about this topic or any other topic related to that. Email us at info@opiates.com, or hit us up on any of the social media as we are @opiates on all those platforms. You can also start with the website, which is a great place to get information which is just opiates.com, easy to remember, easy to use and uh, we love you all out there. Please feel free to also share. Uh, you can hear our audio of this, uh, if you’re just watching the video on any of our any Podcatcher podcast programs and platforms you can go to, if you’re only hearing the audio as well, you can also go to any of those sites. I meant to see video clips and to share those with people as well. It helps to spread information that is healthy and helpful. Also helps to spread this show, which allows us to continue to offer, uh, this this support and this, uh, feedback to people. This podcast is a production of the Waismann Method Opioid Treatment Specialists. And for, uh, Clare and David, I’m Dwight Hearst, and I want to thank everybody once again for listening. Remember, keep asking questions. If you ask the right questions, you can find answers. And if you find answers, you can find hope. We’ll see you all again soon.

Clare Waismann, M-RAS/SUDCC II: Thank you guys.

Podcast Episode Summary:

1. Understanding Resistance: The podcast delves into why individuals resist addiction treatment, highlighting the significance of acknowledging the need for help and overcoming fears and expectations.
2. Empathetic Communication: Strategies for communicating with loved ones about addiction are discussed, emphasizing the avoidance of power struggles and the importance of expressing care and concern.
3. Active Listening and Agency: The importance of active listening and allowing the addicted individual to maintain a sense of agency in their recovery journey.
4. Individualized Treatment: Emphasizing the need for treatment approaches tailored to the individual’s unique needs, rather than generic solutions.
5. Intervention Strategies: Tips on timing and approach for interventions, and the importance of understanding the individual’s context and history.
6. Setting Boundaries: Discussion on the complex issue of setting boundaries with loved ones and the balance between support and enabling.
7. Support During and After Treatment: Guidance on how families can effectively support their loved ones during and after the treatment process.